Domestic Terrorists: redux
Zombyboy has a take similar to mine on the ELF. ...Good article. Good writing. Valid point. Zombyboy has a take similar to mine on the ELF.ELF has set itself up as the final arbiter of what is good and right in commerce and growth, and any deviation from their dictates will be punished. Even to the point of picking "up the gun to implement justice."
It is time for our country to recognize these people as the serious threat that they are. It is time for us to understand that they are "unlawful enemy combatants" and should be treated as such. What they are doing is not constitutionally protected speech, is not lawful in any way, and is directly aimed at destroying the basis of our economy.
It's time to start taking ELF as seriously as it takes itself.
Good article. Good writing. Valid point.
“...and is directly aimed at destroying the basis of our economy.”
interesting point.
oh wait!!
isn’t it the basis of your economy that is responsible for the unprecedented destruction of the environment through an emphasis on ecologically-unsustainable growth?maybe destroying the basis of this economy wouldn’t be such a bad idea after all! if you think about it, either we smarten up and destroy this economy, or it destroys us.
your choice!
k.s.
Posted by kaveh on 08/07/03 at 04:20 PMk.s.
You can’t really have thought this through. It is *your* economy, too.
Consider the effects of a “destroyed economy:” people starving by the millions worldwide; disease run wild; opportunistic military attacks, possibly even nuclear attacks; nuclear accidents; nuclear terrorist attacks; no money or workers to clean up or keep track of things that are already dangerous. The list goes on.
Are you aware that you are talking not only about America but Canada, all of Europe, the Middle East, the Slavic and other new republics, Russia, China, the Koreas, Japan, India, the Pacific Islands and Micronesia, Indonesia, Australia, New Zealand, and all of South America? And everyone I have inadvertently left out. I doubt a single penguin lichen in Antarctica would remain unaffected. Not to mention your family, and mine.
Think, man, think!
Posted by Claire on 08/08/03 at 04:21 AM1. You identify with your system. It cost you blood to build it, and if it is attacked, it is your blood that is being shed.
2. You cannot tolerate tentativeness, suspension of judgment, or anything that does not fit the system.
3. You cannot apprehend anyone else’s system unless it supports yours.
4. You believe that other systems are based on selected data.
5. Commitment to systems other than your own is fanaticism.
6. You come to believe that your system entitles you to proprietorship of the entities within it.
7. Since humor involves incongruity, and your system explains all seeming incongruities, you lose your sense of humor.
8. You lose you humility.
9. You accept all those points - insofar as they apply to builders of other systems.
10. So do 1. (P.S. I hope I believe in the cult of fallibility)
So while I agree that we should take the ELF as serious threat I think that should not preclude us from considering ourselves as a serious threat to others as well.
Posted by the Hardvark on 08/08/03 at 06:34 AMYou are describing the 7th circle of hell, Hardvark. “We have met the enemy and he is us,” sort of thing. It is particularly this bit of commonly accepted self doubt turned axiomatic against which I am speaking.
I wish to speak in favor of holding a more positive perspective on the human animal. I wish to speak in favor of granting our fellows the assumption that they are intellectually competent and sufficiently emotionally mature to be capable of objectivity. this includes the objectivity to realize that one’s rights do end at the point of the other fellow’s nose. For these assumptions are the mechanism by which the standard is set.
Hell, yes we make mistakes. We humans make misjudgments and commit outright thefts on a regular basis. The goal is to decrease the goof-ups and ameliorate the negative effects. What are we doing lately that makes this so much more difficult is the question.
The habit of self-flagellation for past wrongs creates no solutions. The hip, slick, ‘n’ cool cynicism about one’s fellows has become the standard against which we measure ourselves and our fellow citizens. It has lowered our expectations of ourselves, others, and our society, or system, if you will.
It is going beyond hip cynicism to jaded negativity which is sliding rapidly into outright callousness about our fellow humans. How can anything be made to work out for the best if it is created under expectations of the worst. ...created by those from whom one expects the worst.
The expectations become self fulfilling prophesies, and every group/company/government becomes a Them to be distrusted. Eventually, that old Us/Them dichotomy swells to the point that there is no Us and *everyone* is a them; including me!
It is through a process of severe alienation that apparently reasonable, rational people could even conceive of granting a second’s worth of validity to terrorism committed within one’s own society.
Posted by Claire on 08/08/03 at 11:41 AMclaire,
i have, indeed, ‘thought this through’. your response, however, indicates that you may not have paid attention to what i said.
the parade of horribles which you bring before us, however, does not merely result from the destruction of the current economic system.
the current capitalist system, which you seem so keen to preserve, is *itself* responsible for many such horrors.
that was precisely the point that i was trying to make.it takes innovative thinking to get beyond capitalism—a system which has committed many sins (the enviornmental ones being of primary concern given the content of your post.)
the starving children, the needless wars, the endless suffering and dying....these things are all happening *now*. they are not happening despite capitalism, they are happening because of capitalism.
you mention starvation. are people starving because of food shortages in the world? is the world not producing enough to feed everyone? hardly. there is currently more than enough food to go around.
however, an economic system built upon private property and profit cannot allow the fair distribution of food. thousands of tons of food are literally destroyed everywhere, many farmers are paid everywhere not to grow certain crops, all in order to keep the price of certain goods higher and to ensure higher profits.
similarly, you speak of the war that would result if this economic system was overturned. how many wars have we seen in the past 50 years (not to mention the first and second world war) which were primarily upon preserving profit. why were we (yes, after all, it is *my* economy too) fighting in iraq, afghanistan, vietnam, panama, etc..., if not to preserve the very capitalist system which you seem to think is life-sustaining?i stand by my previous statement: “maybe destroying the basis of this economy wouldn’t be such a bad idea after all! if you think about it, either we smarten up and destroy this economy, or it destroys us.”
so, think woman, think!
respectfully,
k.s.
Posted by kaveh on 08/08/03 at 12:19 PMK.S.
Woah!Are you really so incapable of rational thought that you hold “the capitalist system” is responsible for environmental degradation? That is wrong on so many levels it is utterly impossible to conduct a rational discussion.Posted by on 08/08/03 at 12:36 PMI believe that perhaps I have not my point at the end of your nose as clear as I could, and so I wish to e-clarify.
Cynic:
ETYMOLOGY: Latin cynicus, Cynic philosopher, from Greek kunikos, from kun, kun-, dog
NOUN: 1. A person who believes all people are motivated by selfishness. 2. A person whose outlook is scornfully and often habitually negative. 3. Cynic A member of a sect of ancient Greek philosophers who believed virtue to be the only good and self-control to be the only means of achieving virtue.
Or finding fault to cultivate virtue.
It is through a process of severe alienation that apparently helped drive reasonable, rational people could even conceive of committing acts of terrorism against one’s own country.
I believe that various forms of dialogue starting with individuals like yourself, k.s. and myself, working there way outward throughout the various webs of our networks are what offer the greatest opportunities and dangers to be faced in evolving as people, communities, civilizations, and as a species.
I considered Information of Higher Quality and Creating a context for that information to be shared at Blogito Ergo Sum:
http://www.siliconyogi.com/andreas/blog/
PS I enjoy reading through these postings and comments.
Posted by on 08/08/03 at 01:46 PM
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